Ep. 159 Your Email Strategy Is Missing This One Thing

Mark: E-commerce used to be a hidden, like a little bit of a secret.

SPEAKER_04: Yes.

Mark: But now it's just how you do business.

SPEAKER_04: Content is still king, like whether people want to hear it or not, and making sure you're aligned on the content that's working is what's huge. And that's how you're getting people to come back.

Mark: The message is I don't think people are aggressive enough on email. I think a lot of people have an email strategy that's very black and white and just like, hey, here's our flow, and we'll get some. And then they don't ever segment, they don't ever have any like personalized flows. They're not getting aggressive and how when I say aggressive, I'm not saying sell, sell, sell, sell. I'm saying aggressive and trying to make sure that you're staying top of mind.

Trevor: Yo, what's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. With me as always, my co-host Mark Goldhart. Mark Goldhart, how are you today? I'm tired. Good. Good and tired. Disney's overrated. Mark went to Disney this weekend.

SPEAKER_03: Hot take, he didn't love it.

Trevor: Was a bummer about it. But that's on brand for you. Didn't love it. I think I I knew, I just I said, I thought it's on brand for you. Doesn't matter how great it is to not like it. Like there was good moments. But for the price, yeah, you can't. It's always overpriced, so you have to get that out of your head.

SPEAKER_04: Like did you pay for the fast pass?

Trevor: You always have to. I did.

SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.

Trevor: The lightning pass thing?

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Trevor: We have a guest, by the way. Sorry, let me introduce our guest because she's we're tall, we're all chat chatting. I just jumped into Disney. We have a we have a guest. Then we'll we'll table Disney for a second, and then we'll bring we'll come back to this.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we can go.

Trevor: Let's introduce guests really quickly. So you're hearing a voice, if you're listening to this, if you see it. We have Liz Krepka. Yep. The CEO and founder of Nomad Marketing, which is one of the best retention marketing agencies out there, dare I say.

unknown: Thank you.

Trevor: Dare you say in the D2C space. You dared to say. And listen, we talked about D2C or retention maybe three podcasts, two podcasts ago. Yeah, one or two weeks ago.

Mark: We said she was going to be on. Yeah. And I said that before knowing she was actually going to be in town.

SPEAKER_04: You manifested it.

Mark: We're going to get her on soon.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Trevor: We gave our meager takes on retention. Um, I think a lot of those things we'll talk about today, but I like from uh we're in the thick of it in the sense that we work very closely with people like yourself and and other, you know, we're obviously pulling data that is looking at retention, but I think it's gonna be awesome. I think I'm really excited for this conversation. So welcome.

SPEAKER_04: Nice. I'm soaked to be here.

Trevor: Yeah, she came just for us.

SPEAKER_04: And to talk about Disney.

Trevor: Yeah, it's closely to talk about Disney. So we can talk about Disney. We can go back. Okay, pause. Disney. You can't, it's always gonna be the I get there's no more expensive trip out there.

Mark: I get it. But look, it's hard, it's hard when you take your kids to a beach that is free and they have more fun for four straight hours than taking them to Disney, which is not free and very expensive, and they're just like sitting, waiting in lines for hours. And we didn't even see a print. Like yeah, we didn't see any print. Jasmine's the best. So my three-year-old didn't get to see anyone she wanted to see. Well, listen, maybe I'm di I mean, listen. And the Star Wars rides with my boys were cool and that was fun. I'm also like that was great, but are you a fan of roller coasters?

SPEAKER_04: I'm like not the biggest fan of roller coasters.

Mark: I do like roller coasters. So I do. My wife doesn't, but we were hoping like the experience would be more magical and it just isn't. And maybe it's just because it was so busy, it ended up being a really busy day. It wasn't supposed to be.

Trevor: When it is busy, it is an awful place. I and I will totally as somebody who enjoys Disneyland, I agree. Like, I haven't been back in two years because I went on a really busy day. I hated it so much. You were traumatized that I was like, I need a break from this place.

Mark: And to be fair, we're not like a big Disney family. It's not like we're like, let's watch a Disney show every, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: I don't know, I don't know how you define a Disney family, but like we've seen most of Disney movies, but we're not like Have you seen the people on TikTok that live in Disney World? Yes. Do you know what they pay? It's insane.

Trevor: Live there.

SPEAKER_04: Oh, you can live at the park. You haven't you haven't doom scrolled this on TikTok? Do it.

Trevor: Interesting.

SPEAKER_04: You can like live in like certain homes. First of all, the HOA of those homes is insane. It's like $1,800, $1,900 a month. So it's like just for just the HOA. Just for the HOA. And then you have to like you can live in like Bell's library castle. And it will be like, like, it's literally like your whole home is based off of Bell.

Trevor: Interesting.

Mark: I had I had a I knew these people. I just don't think that's good for anyone's mental well-being.

SPEAKER_04: I used to- I'm who's buying the I I'm sorry. The comments underneath of the comments that you want to like read through.

Mark: It's too neverland for me, you know?

SPEAKER_04: Like And it's all like adults. Like they're like 36, 30 to 40-year-old women who are like, Interesting. We love living in Bell's Castle. And I'm like, this is some dystopian, like this needs to be some sort of series.

Mark: Like I'm I'm all for people doing stuff that makes them happy, but they're like the millions of dollars and it's a good idea. It's gotta be like a little bit of a line, right? Like that can't be moderation. That can't be good to just can live continuously in like a fantasy. I had these, I had these Peter Pan. Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04: Like you're literally never leaving Neverland.

Mark: Yeah, it's like you gotta like you gotta come out of Neverland. I mean, m no you don't. You did. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: Well, Peter Pan doesn't.

Trevor: I I mean if you live there, Disney's not going anywhere, so if that's just their lives, I guess they couldn't.

Mark: But the kids came out.

Trevor: Well, what I was just about to say, I had I knew this couple, this family in I used to live back to the And the book is a lot more dark than the cartoon. I've never read the book. I have been trying to tell the story. Sorry, go for it. Let me tell the story, please. Okay. I knew this family who lived on the East Coast, and they were massive Disney people. And one day they were like, oh, we're moving. They lived in our neighborhood. They're like, we're moving. We're like, oh, where are you moving? They're like, Orlando. And we're like, oh, what for? And they're like, we just got jobs with Disney. And this guy worked like as a civil engineer, lived, I mean, lived in like a 7,000 square foot mansion, super, super well off. They loved Disney so much that she she got a job um at the concession stands at Disney, and he got a job as a street sweeper at Disney. He quit, retired. So they're older. No. They were 45. Oh.

SPEAKER_03: Why?

Trevor: Like they had they had they had a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old, and the 16 and 18-year-old got jobs at the water park. They're there at the at one of the hotels.

SPEAKER_04: They don't.

Trevor: And then when quit job and just get a street sweep.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, one thing I give just.

Trevor: I never know what happened after them.

SPEAKER_04: Is like if you if you get in with their own.

Mark: It seems a lot more normal though, because they're working. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: But they still live there and they never leave.

Mark: I know, but at least they're doing something.

Trevor: I mean, they weren't living on property that I knew of, but at least they're doing something.

SPEAKER_04: If you get an internship there, they pretty much, you're pretty much guaranteed that like you could work there forever, kind of like they will like always hire from within. One thing I give them is like I have a girlfriend who worked who did their marketing internship there and it was unpaid, and she worked like terrible hours. But once she graduated, if you graduate from their internship program, they are super good about like promoting from within. Like you could sort of never leave if you didn't want to. Like you have to kind of like royally mess up to get kicked out.

Mark: Well, like I'll I'll give this is what I'll give Disneyland credit for is all of their employees are very great. Like they're good.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: Like they're pleasant and nice, and it's a good experience whenever you interact with an employee. I'll give them an A plus for that.

Trevor: I hear a lot of actors come out of Disney and as people who work at the theme parks.

Mark: That makes sense. Like all of them. It was great. Like A plus experience interacting with employees at the hotel and in the park.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like you never leave having like a terrible, like you're not like, oh my gosh, this is like this is a magic.

Mark: It just seems like it's a systematic problem from above. Like they're squeezing so much out of the park.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: They need to put limits on it. Like you can't just shove. Or like just make it cheaper for kids, and then I wouldn't be so grumpy about it. Like if you cut kids' prices in half, I'll pay the same. But if you cut my kids' prices like half of what they were, how much is it for a kid?

SPEAKER_04: One kid.

Mark: It's not that much cheaper. It's like seven.

Trevor: It's like 15 bucks cheaper.

Mark: Yeah, but wouldn't that wouldn't that also be? I'd rather have the prices work. Wouldn't you rather have it be busier with a bunch of little kids than busier with just tons of people?

Trevor: Probably.

Mark: And isn't that gonna give more kids a magical experience where they're gonna want to go back?

SPEAKER_04: I almost also feel like as if I'm gonna be able to do it.

Mark: Like if we never went back, I don't think they'd ever ask for it.

SPEAKER_04: Really?

Trevor: That's so funny. Yeah, my kids love it. Like my kids love I mean, they're they've been so bummed that we haven't been back for a couple years. They're all so mad that I had such a bad experience. Yeah, my kids like, but now my brain is like, oh, I could spend for me, if I go stay there for three days and I I like to stay on property, it's five grand.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, so then like couldn't And then on property. You could take your whole family to Europe, but that's that's what I mean.

Trevor: Like, well, it's That's why it's hard. In my brain.

SPEAKER_04: Or like you could go to the US Open.

Trevor: Yeah, in my brain, I'm like, oh, I want to I'll go to Cabo for a fishing raft. I'll go to Cabo at an all-inclusive resort for a week. That's what I kept thinking four grand, you know. Yeah, for my family.

SPEAKER_04: Let them run amok and run around if they want to.

Mark: Anyways, retention marketing. Look. In terms of retention marketing for Disney, they know how to do it. But they're losing I think they are losing ground.

SPEAKER_04: To who?

Mark: It's very clear their movies are losing ground. I don't know if they're I don't know if their resorts are losing a ton of ground, but like I said, I mean the best the best thing they've put out in the last 20 years is a licensed product from Australia's version of PBS.

SPEAKER_04: Whoa, whoa, whoa. They have Harry Potter HBO coming out. HB uh Harry Potter is Warner Brothers. Oh, I thought that was the same.

Mark: HBO no. HBO, Warner Brothers.

SPEAKER_04: I thought Warner Brothers. Why are they all in the same park then? They're not.

Trevor: Universal Studios.

unknown: Oh.

Trevor: Universal Studio.

SPEAKER_04: I'm not a Disney adult. This is how you know. I've never been this is how you know.

Trevor: I've never been in Universal Studios. Let's move on from our Disney discussion. Let's talk about Email. Liz. Let's talk about Liz. Um, no, let's talk about let's talk about so give give us a quick spiel on who you are. Let's just make it quick. Okay. You know, not that people don't want to hear who you are. Nice. But I think really like what what we want to know and what what listeners want to know is we've been saying this over the last couple of months. I don't know if there's anything more challenging right now than getting somebody to come back.

SPEAKER_04: For sure. Um, well, I'm Liz. I run a boutique, email and SMS agency. We only do email and sms. Um and we have been doing email and SMS for I've been doing it for my whole career. So I started at SAP, then I got farmed out to workfront, which I landed here. Um when I we were workfronters. Nice. We were oh my gosh, really?

Trevor: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Uh let's see. I was like 2016.

Trevor: Oh yeah, I was before. I was at task.

SPEAKER_04: Ooh.

Trevor: And we rebranded to workfront while I was there. So I was probably like 11 to 13.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, and then I left right as I got bought by Adobe.

Trevor: And I was doing all their email marketing.

SPEAKER_04: Really? Yeah.

Trevor: That's how I got my start in marketing was email marketing there.

SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh, I wonder if I took your job. Like when you left.

Trevor: Well, I left in 2013. So if you were there 23. You took the job of somebody who took my job.

unknown: Well.

SPEAKER_04: That's our seven degrees to Kevin Bacon or whatever.

Trevor: What was that email platform back then?

SPEAKER_04: Marketo.

Trevor: Marketo.

SPEAKER_04: Marketo's actually pretty dope.

Trevor: I got us on to Marketo. Dude, I like actually still love. Migrated to Marketo.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. Marketo, Eloqua, those were like my shit.

Trevor: We went from Eloqua to Marketo. And Eloqua is like the biggest pain in the butt.

SPEAKER_04: Dude, it's like a dinosaur. That thing, Eloqua. And it also hasn't changed, which is wild. I logged into it recently to audit someone, and I was like, wow. This is like the same back end, which is pretty crazy. Um, and then workfront changed over to Adobe. And once it changed over to Adobe, I was freelancing for a bunch of brands around here, and I decided that once I paid off my student loans, I kind of didn't have to do the whole work corporately thing. And so I just didn't. And so now I've been running this agency for the past like 11, 12 years. Oh wow. Yeah.

Trevor: Was that long?

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Trevor: Sweet.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. Um, but it's been pretty amazing. We're we're not direct-to-consumer only. We have a couple of B2B clients that I actually quite like sometimes because B2B is like no complaints, like yeah, a little less demanding and stressful. Oh, yeah. And especially now, B2B is like can rock and roll in certain ways that like direct-to-consumer can't. Um and yeah, that's it.

Mark: That's because your value per customer is so high. Yeah. The cycles are so long. Buying cycles or there's a lot more of like a systematic way of thinking about it, not just like running gun.

SPEAKER_04: It takes so long to figure out if what you're doing is right or wrong. This was a big frustration for me, like at workfront, was like even when we did like account-based marketing, like it was six to nine months before you knew like if you what you did worked.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: So direct to consumer was fun for me at the time because it's like, oh, you can make pivots and you can make like you can tell right away if a campaign hits or if a campaign.

Mark: That's how I felt when we when I first jumped in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: Because we were in the healthcare, like it wasn't it was big to consumers, but you know, the sales cycle was about two to four weeks. Yep.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: And then you jump into like real direct to consumer and it's like, oh cool.

SPEAKER_04: You're like days. Instant. Like last seven day lowback.

Mark: That didn't.

SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah. And especially like from 2016 to I would say like 2022, like you were able to make pivots and like stuff was like it felt like easygoing compared to like what e-commerce looks like now.

Mark: I feel like so what I think e-commerce used to be a hidden, like a little bit of a secret.

SPEAKER_04: Yes.

Mark: But now it's just how you do business. And I think that's been the biggest challenge for certain mindsets.

SPEAKER_04: There was a lot of brands who I don't know if you guys saw this, but like they could have their thing where it was like, okay, like maybe I'm just like super heavy in acquisition, but I like don't need to beef up my retention program. Like, I know we even have some accounts that we cross over on where like that's the case. Or you had a really heavy like retention program, but like your acquisition program was so so. And even now, like I'll have people that come to us and they're like, if we run, like I had somebody literally on an audit call the other day that was like, if we're running stuff with you, does this mean we can turn off ads? And I'm like, What? Like, I was like, is this 2019? Like, do you have like some secrets also organic that nobody else has? Yeah, and they're like, Well, no, we just like want to cut ad spend. And I'm like, this is not like an either or situation. This is like an and also need situation. Like they need to be like one symbiotic, like cohesive gear. And also, like a big hot take for me is ads teams and like retention teams could never talk to each other. Like in 2016 to 2024, even maybe 2023, I feel like I could talk to a marketing like director and never talk to the ads team. Like they, I could never get insights, I could just run what I needed to run when I needed to run it. Now you like people want a personalized one-to-one experience. You can only do that by getting fe a feedback loop from like all different channels. And I don't know if you guys are feeling the same thing, but that's a bit of like big breakdown for a lot of marketing audiences. They're like, well, my retention program's over here and they're running this calendar on these days, this, that, and then. And our ad team is over here, but they're not really seeing insights. And I'm like, I've looked at like the magic. Like, even when I'll we'll call Mark and I'll be like, Hey, like, what are you seeing in some of these accounts? Like, is there zero party data here that you're seeing that I'm not? Like, are there ads that are coming through that are working that like could be hitting for us? Like, yeah.

Mark: Product types.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: Um yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I was just thinking about how naturally you're seeing like a not a unification of everything, but like you kind of have to de-silo all of your initiatives. So before, like if you go back in time, even creative was siloed off.

SPEAKER_04: For sure.

Trevor: You had like media buyers, and then they were just like pushed creative, and they were also like, hey, we're doing what works, organic, like like and the creative was all just about organic, and then you would just like get kind of campaign, like campaign-based, like, oh, we're shooting this new color of t-shirt. And then you had email over there, getting anything for ads, so the ad team would just take whatever they had, and yeah.

Mark: Yeah, and you would be like, ads would just work because it was easy back then.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and ads was like, hey, we can like just campaign blast like this Pilates girl. And if I would try Pilates messaging and email, it never worked. But now all of a sudden, like, that's like that's a hot take. Like, content is still king, like whether people want to hear it or not, and making sure you're aligned on the content that's working is what's huge. And that's how you're getting people to come back. Like, you can no longer have people join. I guarantee you, like any brand that might listen to this, if you're not doing it, if you're not using zero party data in your like welcome through your like abandoned checkout flows, those are probably your highest unsubscribed flows. And it's because you're not giving people a reason to stay outside of a discount. Like you're never giving them like a solution to any of the problems that they're coming in from ads. So we have a client right now who it's like in the wedding, like uh like vertical. The wedding vertical. And she was like, Hey, our welcome flow is our like highest unsubscribed flow. And I was like, Of course. You've like timed your ads perfectly now. They're coming in from the welcome flow, they're using their discount because you know the exact time when they buy your product, right? Four to six weeks, well, three to four weeks before their wedding, maybe one to two weeks after their wedding, right? And then they're they're coming in, they're buying. What's their reason to stay? Like we gave them the code. That's that's what they want. So we like have to give them another reason. Is it to gift something? Is it to for your sister's wedding that might be coming up? Is it like all of these other keepsake things that you offer?

Mark: Like is there another moment that you're preparing for? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: But like welcome emails, like historically, we're always like, give them the code. And if you put this in Claude right now, it would tell you that framework, like give them the code and let them go, because that's what they're there for. Well, now what's happening is as people are unsubscribing from those like beginning, like top six flows. Well, what's their reason to say? Like, what community, not even community are you building, but what reason and what moment are you creating for them to like come back again? You're not, you gave them the code and they've left.

Mark: Also, what are what is your hot takes on worrying about people unsubscribing? I mean, because we we have our hot takes. Our hot take is Don't worry about it. Who cares? Yeah, if they're unsubscribing, they're not gonna buy. So why are we so worried about it?

SPEAKER_04: It all depends to me on like what is your goal? Like, so you have like some people who are like, hey, I like is your goal like a blended ROAS? Is your goal that you want a really high revenue per recipient in your retention program? Is your goal that eventually you want to sell and you want to be able to have like 10 million subscribers in your database? Like sometimes at the end of the day for some of these businesses, I'm like, what is your true like end game? Like, if your end game is just like make revenue, if they're unsubscribing, it means you've time to me. I'm like, you've like snaps for your acquisition team, you've timed it perfectly. It did what it was supposed to do. Now if your goal is that And if they're not coming back, then they they came for what they wanted and they bought your product, and hopefully they're gonna, like hopefully maybe you could hit them up through word of mouth or through reviews, or hopefully maybe you can create user-generated content from them. Like if they like, like in this case, like if they post about you guys, like can you use them and like email, like email somewhere else? Right. But there are some products where people will come back and it will be perfectly timed, and like that's exceptional for your acquisition team. There are some industries though, like clothing, where you could come back time and time again. I don't want them to have a high unsubscribe rate on welcome. Like I don't want accessories to have a high unsubscribe rate. Like it depends on the honestly the depth of your product catalog. If you're like a one, a one-hit product wonder, or if you're like a very specialized, like high AOV, like luxury price point pot product, you're probably So really you're just looking at like if somebody has a repeat purchase rate of let's call it three orders or more.

Mark: Yes, then you gotta be more worried about your unsubscribed but even probably two or more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. But if it's one point five But like how many one one products catch. Catalogs, you know. You don't care if they if they come in by through the welcome flow and whatever, okay.

Mark: Yeah. They bought like you can also get a lot more gimmicky with that kind of product.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: And sometimes owners don't want to, but it's like the reality is they're not coming back. So you get someone to buy now or you lose the chance.

Trevor: Yeah.

Mark: So like you once they're here, you like who you pull out all the stuff. Like, I don't know, put your MSRP up higher and then have a discount, have like a timer, do everything you can to get them.

SPEAKER_04: Or do you want them to just bundle and buy like right away?

Mark: Like, because they're not coming back anyway, so you better get them now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: But I I worry about it. It's honestly it's per it has to be like per brand. Like there is no like like people will ask me on calls, like, well, what should an avenue average like revenue per recipient be? What should this like it's all dependent on your product catalog, your industry, and like and honestly those two things.

Mark: So that's what I always say with ads. Like I'm always like, it just depends. Yeah. Like the hot take is that it just depends. It's always in context, and it's hard to give you hot takes. But but overall, I think the message is I don't think people are aggressive enough on email. I think a lot of people have an email strategy that's very black and white and just like, hey, here's our flow, and we'll get some. And I also think they don't ever segment, they don't ever have any like personalized flows, they're not getting aggressive and how when I say aggressive, I'm not saying sell, sell, sell, sell. I'm saying aggressive and trying to make sure that you're staying top of mind.

SPEAKER_04: So my thing is this is like the brands okay, the brands that are winning right now, Mark and I have talked about this a lot, like on the phone. The brands that I'm seeing winning right now are the ones that like are willing to kind of like lay down their cards and they don't care. So like I'll be like text-based emails are having a moment right now. Text-based emails are having a moment right now for everyone who needs to hear it. Like, I'll shout it from the rooftops. They don't look great.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: No, like, no very brand forward brand loves it. You know what also doesn't look great? The clawed email that you sent out that's like a hundred gigabytes too big and is also not loading and looks like every other brand's clawed email that you like that you just hit send on.

Trevor: Like, but you think it's cool because you didn't have to design it and for sure. Like Buffy.

SPEAKER_04: Do you know the brand Buffy?

Trevor: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: They're like, their emails right now. I'm like, wow, you went from having like I think like some pretty stellar branding. I'm like, you look like every plastic surgeon that I'm also getting emails from right now because you're doing like clawed emails, which is fine, but they're not ADA compliant and they're not whatever. In my opinion, if you're willing to go out break your branding for that, break your branding for a text-based email. Yeah.

Trevor: And make it look like it's coming from a founder. So it's like, it's like not on brand, but it kind of is.

SPEAKER_04: And also, like, I have some brands who like I have a brand that I audited who's like, dude, we will only send text-based emails.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: And they're like, they're a pretty big brand. And I was shocked. And they were like, send me like an HTML email. I'll test it. If it doesn't outperform the text base, I won't. It doesn't.

Trevor: Tell tell me why, why, why is text? So I know it's having a moment, but also why is it like better for the email platforms?

SPEAKER_04: They deliver differently. Yeah. So they like, okay, an HTML email on the back end. So most people are doing HTML emails, not HTML. They're not hard coding them, even with Claude. What you're doing is you're doing you're uploading your designing images.

Mark: Yep.

SPEAKER_04: So you can do design-based emails if you have super strong alt text. Alt text is like the hidden text behind the image. What alt text has historically been for a lot of people is they'll be like nomad header, nomad button. What alt text is supposed to do is explain the framework of the email. So what happened at the beginning of this year is that image-based emails are getting read by AI. They're getting read by AI on the back end. And when they don't have good alt text or strong text behind it, they're the email like AI is going like, oh, you're blank. Like all it's saying is nomad header, nomad button, nomad whatever. This is like a spammy, generic brand promotional email.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: We're putting you in like potentially in spam or promotions. And also another thing, another tip is if you're sending at the top of the hour. So if you send like nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, if you're even like roughly on the cusp of being in like promotions or spam and you're always sending on the hour, you are 100% gonna land land in spam.

Trevor: Interesting.

SPEAKER_04: Text-based emails, there's something for the back end to read. So all of a sudden, the back end AI is going like knows what the actual message is. So it knows the content. So it's siphoning it, going like, oh, okay, Cozy Earth is having a 20% off sale. Because I just saw one from them like this morning. Cozy Earth is having a 20% off of sale of sheet sheets. This isn't promo though, because it's from their founder. So we're actually gonna, this seems like it's from a person, we're gonna root it to you. So like now email has become this game of like you're just trying to trick the back-end server constantly. And if you land too consistently, which can I just back up for just a second?

Mark: That backend server, what what she's referring to is everyone got an update in Gmail and on their iOS. Where if you go into your mail, you have folders now. You have spam folders, you have promotion folders, you have what's the other one? It's just like promo, promo, it should be promo, inbox, and spam.

SPEAKER_04: Those are the three big ones. Like if you go on like Glock apps, those are the three places where it will tell you your inbox.

Mark: And what's happening to a lot of brands is because they're not what she's saying is because they're not giving this alt text or they're not doing these text specs based emails, they're automatically getting pushed into either spam or a promo or an update folder.

Trevor: Yeah.

Mark: And guess who's opening those folders up? The answer is nobody.

SPEAKER_04: Right.

Trevor: Well, stop that has like 93% of all emails from brands get put in promotion. For sure. Sound about right.

SPEAKER_04: And so, like the thing about okay, that does sound right. And the thing about promo is this is if you start landing in it too consistently, you're never getting out. You're it's not like you're never getting out, but you gotta work super hard to trick the system. Yeah. So like then if you are landing in promo, you almost want to land in the top five. And there are different ways that you can do that. You can put like code on the bottom of your emails to make sure that you're landing in the top five, so that like Gmail is maybe like highlighting you as like a brand that you know how in your top five, sometimes there will be like images of the like promo. Um, that's something that's like hard-coded. That's a way to like move from spam to promo back to inbox. But the only way to truly move to inbox would be like honestly sending emails that are like 70, 30 image, like text-based to image, or sending some text-based emails. But brands hate to hear it, especially when they're super branded forward. Yeah. But my thing about if you are branded forward, that three hours or two hours, or however long your graphic designer spent on designing that email, however long it's nobody seeing it. Well, like what's the point?

Mark: Like, what is the point of mark? Like, I always say this the point of marketing is to be seen. Right. If you don't have a brand, you don't I mean, obviously, the next parse pod is you don't have a brand if you're not seen. Exactly. You have to be seen and remembered.

Trevor: You have to have attention.

Mark: So being seen is marketing, have being remembered as a brand. Yeah. Well, and you can't be seen unless you're you're playing by the rules.

SPEAKER_04: Seeing it and opening it. And the other thing is is like Clavio or like attentive or any of those ESPs in platform reporting is lying to you because they're like, oh, you're 99% delivered. So for the longest time, people come to me and be like, How do I have a deliverability problem? I don't understand that. Clavio says I'm 99% delivered. You can be delivered to spam. You are being delivered to spam.

Mark: Like you're going to an inbox. Right.

SPEAKER_04: It's just not the inbox that you want to go to or that people are shopping. You're not in the right folder.

Trevor: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: So like there is a tool, Glock Apps, that lets you run free ones.

Trevor: Glock? G-L.

SPEAKER_04: G-L-O-C-K dot A-P-P-S. And what you can do is like you can run, I think, up to five free seed tests, and you'll see exactly where you're inbox placing. And it's alarming. Like when I run those tests, I ran it for Mark once with two brands. It's alarming to see where you're inbox placing. And when you show people like those specific reports, then they start to it like I start to see the gears click of like, oh, I'm delivering, but I've been delivering to spam. And they're like, for how long? And it's almost it's typically it's like pretty disgusting to go back and see for how long you've been doing it. Yeah.

Trevor: So what's what are some things outside of a text-based email? Talk to us more. Like, what are some things that brands should be doing? Things that you're seeing that can help get in the inbox or in a text message or whatever it might be.

Mark: And you don't have to divulge all your secrets.

SPEAKER_04: I mean, I mean, three big ones are gonna be this is like healthy alt text. You cannot be sending to all subscribers. Like, this is just like I think baseline. There was a period of time, and this is true. Like, I still have clients that will be like, send to all subscribers, I don't care. It's really, really bad for your framework. You can do it once in a while. At minimum, like you should only find framework. Like, if you're sending to all subscribers 24-7, like every campaign is all subscribers all of the time, you're definitely gonna land in spam. You should be like switching it up and you should be going to like engage maybe.

Mark: And is that because these servers are recognizing that there's tons of these messages getting shot out of the same IP?

Trevor: Well, and probably there's tons that also never get opened. Like I'm sure that gets passed back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: So engagement of emails is like more critical than it ever was. So, like, kind of like what we were talking about, good content, still super important. That's why zero party data ties in, right? Making sure that the content people, what you mean by zero party data, just so zero party data is when someone comes to the website and it's not something that's inferred, it's something that they've chosen. So if you come to a website and it's on a pop-up and it's like, hey, I'm Liz, like, what are you? Let's say it's a protein website. What are you here for today? I just I'm on Ozempic and I can only eat one meal a day. I want to be high protein. I just live a healthier, cleaner lifestyle. I'm shopping for my parent or whatever. One of those buttons that you click, that's zero party data. First party data is anything that's inferred by everything now that you're doing on the website. So if you beep bop around and you shop around to like supplements or protein or other things, that's considered first party data.

Trevor: They might be interested in protein.

SPEAKER_04: Exactly.

Trevor: So you're making tracking essentially.

SPEAKER_04: So you're making a lot of assumptions there. Zero party data means you've committed, you've told me I'm here for X. So content is super important.

Mark: From the horse's mouth, they say.

SPEAKER_04: Well, sometimes I do wonder, like, I've always wanted to test like how many of my I have to go back and see like how many of my pop us are people just choosing like the very first button.

unknown: Which I hope.

Mark: Yeah, you should always randomize your answers.

Trevor: If you have, if you can, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and change it up if you're gonna do it.

Mark: And and throw in a filler that's like a fake answer.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. All the above. Um but highlighting like making sure content aligns with the zero party data, like giving people like the the problem. Um and making sure you're switching up your lists, like you cannot, you just can't be batching blasting anymore. This the systems are too smart and it you're not gonna outpace them. So if you have like a calendar of 12 emails in a month, maybe six of them need to go to like engaged in the last 180 days. Maybe two of them need to go to your win back audience, maybe four of them need to go to your a wider audience. I don't know, but you need to like play around with some frameworks that work for you and for your audience. Yep.

Mark: Or would a framework like, hey, if you want to try to get it to everybody, you have to break down all subscribers into seven different segments. Let's just say seven and then seven different messages for each one of those segments.

SPEAKER_04: Yep.

Mark: And then sending those out in staggered times.

SPEAKER_04: Also, that is a good way. Okay, sending out staggered messages like that is also a really good way to see what audiences are and are not actually converting. So, like, we run a lot of tests where it will be like engage in the last seven days, like run the same email to engage last seven, engage in the last 30, engage in the last 90, engage in the last 180 days, engage in the last 365 days, see what the open, the C VR, and the revenue per recipient is on each of them. You'll be mind blown to see that like opening it up to everybody oftentimes actually doesn't create as much revenue as you think it does.

Trevor: Well, a lot of times it will create less revenue, even though it's sent to significantly more people and less opens.

SPEAKER_04: And then the lack of engagement is drastically hurting your overall like health and performance.

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SPEAKER_04: I know we talked about this a little bit before. I like always think I think like in five years, SMS is gonna take the cake. Um RCS, I'm seeing some really cool stuff with RCS. But it's gonna take the cake, but what is it now in terms of I mean most of my brands, I'm seeing a big shift in the last two years where one of our mutual brands is almost SMS exclusive. And they crush.

Mark: Yeah. And and they're and their SMS, by the way. They're not pretty. Nothing about their brand is pretty, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04: But they do they know who their audience is.

Mark: It's for their audience.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, but this is the thing is again, content is king. They know exactly what's gonna work and what doesn't work, and they know what to send and when not to send it. Like they just it's honestly, it's like sometimes I think he should teach like a masterclass. But RCS is like, it's the the new thing that's like on the horizon right now on email and SMS. And people were scared of it for a really long time because it's 10 to 50, 15% more in billable spend. Right. I've launched it in over half of our brands. Cost is negligible. Like the data that you get from it and the people that you know to like not target or the people that you know to leave off of your lists so drastically outweighs the the like the cent cost. Yes. Like you can make your billable spend still fit within it, and you can do so many cool things like Ridge Wallets is doing it, Roan is doing it, Farm Rio is doing it, and Groove Life. Like those are four brands that are doing RCS super cool. I think like if you don't have it provisioned before Black Friday, you need to get it provisioned because it takes six to eight weeks. It's incredible. You show Black Friday. Yeah, it's gonna be huge. It's gonna be brands that have RCS.

Trevor: Explain, explain to brands really quickly RCS and how to get provision.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so SMS is coming through the biggest difference between the two is SMS is coming through and it can occasionally land in your promotions folder. So SMS is getting routed like a normal text message. Imagine that you're everybody that's on SMS is Android, they're all green.

SPEAKER_03: Yep.

SPEAKER_04: Okay. Everybody that's on RCS, they're blue. They're your rich friends. Okay, they're coming through iMessage.

SPEAKER_03: Yep.

SPEAKER_04: So, but they're always showing up in your friends. They have to show up in your friends. Get ahead of the curve now and get like be in the friend list now before it's overwhelming and every brand is doing it. But with RCS, you also get you can do like contact cards, you can add in a button, you can add in so many more MMS messages, and it's like it doesn't cost you any more than SMS or MMS does before.

SPEAKER_03: Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_04: Yep. And you get a branded contact card, like, and you get an icon and a logo that shows up the way like your friends or your wife or your kids do in your phone.

Mark: Nice. Well, a good way to think about it is uh SMS is one-way communication. Yeah. Right? Like you send it, it goes through the telecommunications and then it drops. Right? RCS is almost like what over Wi-Fi. It's not even almost, yeah. Like it's it's going through the data network the way BlackBerry did it back in the day.

SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.

Mark: So it's a two-way communication. So like you can see if people open, like it's similar, it's similar more, yeah. It's like a little similar similar to like iMessage, like she's saying. So it goes through data, not or the internet, not through the cellular towers.

SPEAKER_04: And like as a brand on the back end, so as a user it's cool because it has to show up. Yeah. And it has all of these different functionalities now that text messages didn't have. On the back end, now you can also see who's leaving you on red, who is leaving you like has never delivered, who is an ineligible number, who is um who has like potentially like went to like text back to you guys. Like, is two-way text a thing there? And that's what I mean by cost is negligible. Now you're able to leave, like, okay, if people have left us on red for the last 15 messages, we're not sending you texts anymore.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: And so it's giving you so much more powerful data is outside of just like, did they click this link? Yeah. And you know so much more about them. It's really cool. And I think it's gonna be like it will be every brand will have to do it eventually, so you might as well switch over.

Trevor: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: And you might as well be ahead of the curve, in my opinion.

Trevor: Yeah. I like and I like the advice, like, do it. You say it's six to eight weeks.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. So if you begin to provision it now, like we're about to do it.

Mark: What does SMS stand for? Um I actually looked this up. Is it simple message system or something? I can't remember what it is.

SPEAKER_04: I think it is simple message system. I looked at the same thing. And then RCS is rich communications.

Trevor: Um I mean we're short message today. Short message system. We're almost eight weeks out from Black Friday.

SPEAKER_04: So like if you want it for if you basically if you're launching Black Friday, November 1st, you are a little bit late to the game.

Mark: Oh no. When does the podcast come out? Shoot. Do we have to speed up the podcast? Publishing. No, not happening. It's a red alert.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: But um there are so many brands.

Mark: Cooper is sounding the alert.

SPEAKER_04: Dude, there are so many brands that are dragging their feet on it, and I have been like honking this horn since July, and the cost scares everybody, and it blow it like actually blows my mind.

Trevor: I'm like What is the cost? It's they say it's 10% more, but it's per message.

SPEAKER_04: It it's I haven't seen anybody's billable spend raised before.

Mark: But what you're saying is it's not that technically each send isn't the same. You're saying that because of the data, you're able to then be more efficient with your spends. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: And isn't that ultimately what you want? Like a more efficient ROAS? Like that's I think everybody's like hot take and goal.

Mark: Yeah. So not mine.

Trevor: Well, not for ads.

Mark: Yeah, no, we want a good ROAS.

Trevor: We want a good ROAS, but if that's all you're focused on, you can't grow. Yeah.

Mark: So you can't only be focused on ROAS. No.

SPEAKER_04: Do you think ROAS alone is more important than like do you think blended ROAS is the most important metric?

Trevor: Yes. Well well more important than more important than ROAS. Yeah. Yes. But contribution margin, I think, is the most important metric.

SPEAKER_04: Is that your guys' favorite thing to figure out? Contribution margin.

Trevor: I mean, it's the only truth.

Mark: There's a few things that are fun.

Trevor: Is in contribution margin.

Mark: And then measuring the actual impact of like where where your ad spend impacts the bottom line.

Trevor: Yeah, Roaz is great from a tact like we looked at it from a tact, tactful perspective. Like, okay, is this ad getting something healthy here? Cool, let's double down here. Let's create more of extra.

SPEAKER_04: What is your guys' window? So like people will come back to us and they're always like, we're doing like an L7 look back. And in emails, L7's like sometimes really hard. Like, even if we like we tighten up all of our attribution windows to be like one day, one click, which is pretty uncommon.

Mark: But like people will come email, like well, traditionally it was seven to twenty-eight, right? But then Meta got rid of the twenty-eight, like to optimize on. So you can still optimize off of seven. Incremental changes, this kind of makes it a little more vague. But the pro here's the problem that has arisen over the last year and a half is organic not year and a half, it's really been three years, four years. Organic distribution has been getting worse and worse and worse for most brands. Like most brands are struggling to get a lot of organic traction just from like videos, like organic distribution and social. So a lot of people's first touch points now. R ads. R ads, even for smaller brands, where before it was kind of like you could trust some like organic distribution. So you're optimizing off of seven usually in meta. But there's view through, which is also suspect. Which is why it's like, look, if you're playing the attribution rabbit hole, it's good as a measuring stick in terms of like what's your goal? Like you said, so it depends on what your goal is. Like, is your goal to go 80 miles per hour in as fast as possible, or is it to get on a freeway and go 80 consistently at a low RPM? Do you want a certain gas mileage to get to where you're going?

SPEAKER_04: So like occasionally the brands that I know, I know we talked early about like brands that are crushing it right now. Some of the brands that I know that are really like are going the distance are the ones who know they're like, we want five years, we want to sell, like we want to throttle it like this.

Mark: Like it's well for sure, because then you can stay consistent to a plan. So like if you know what your your actual goal is, it's a lot easier to stay consistent to whatever needs to happen to make that a reality instead of like so are is slow, low growth okay because you want this to be like a family run business in 10 years.

Trevor: Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Or is this like, do you just want to sell to the VC?

Trevor: You just want to have fun.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, do you just want to sell this to the city?

Trevor: Do we call it like a lifestyle brand versus a yeah, I want to sell and I want to be groomed.

Mark: And for certain and for certain clients, it's like it's not a bad like you know, you have to kind of almost like talk people off a cliff. It's like it's not a bad thing to have a lifestyle brand.

SPEAKER_04: It's also not a bad thing if you want to sell. I feel the opposite. So many brands will be like, we maybe want to, and I'm like, dude, if you want to sell, shout it from the rooftop. I don't care. Like, yeah, it's just I want to help you get to wherever you want to get to.

Mark: And there's different levers if you're depending on what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: So like if you're trying to sell, yes, like there's EBITDA that you want to measure, right? You want to measure what is your actual growth rate, and that can kind of offset certain EBITDA. You know, like there's there's things that you can play with to say what's the goal, like fast growth is obviously usually like the goal when you're trying to sell in a certain amount of time.

Trevor: Yeah, it's like you're trying to do slow, yeah, slow and steady, man.

Mark: It's it's some of our best and fastest growing clients are slow and steady because it compounds every year.

Trevor: Right. Yeah, because two years later, all of a sudden they're making 10x where they were a couple.

Mark: Even though they're not trying to grow at like a a crazy rate, it's just, hey, we're just compounding, we want to stay profitable. And because they're not stressed, it's almost like it translates into like brand initiatives.

SPEAKER_04: Right. Yeah.

Mark: And it's not all about selling all the time. So it's yeah, it's interesting. Like it's obviously not binary in how these things all work together, but there's a lot of variables, including like macroeconomic elements out there that are hard to talk about because like you can't control them, but they they do impact buying behavior.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Mark: Um but no, ultimately, I think yeah, like you have to start big picture and then you have to zoom in. Yeah. But if you don't have the big picture defined, it's like zooming in is always just gonna be rabbit holes of false negatives and false positives because like the goal, like the goalposts are always gonna change.

SPEAKER_04: For sure. And you're never like aligned to like one true message, yeah, or brand standard.

Mark: You know, like we've we've experienced that like with working with you. Like we have had clients that we've both worked on where it's like the goal seems to move every month. And so when the goal is moving, like no matter what you do, it's like it's hard to measure and get towards the end because all of a sudden the goalposts moved and you're like, Okay, well, if now we're operating off of only profitability and efficiency and not growth, then we are moving, yeah, we did what was wrong, but if we did what we thought we were supposed to do last month, then we were doing what was right.

SPEAKER_04: Well, and also like what gets hard when you're changing things month over month is like then when you're looking back at year over year stuff, you can't be like, oh, June is always historically bad. Yes. Like we have a lot of brands where I'm just like, like, we have a brand this, I feel like every June, July brands get amnesia, and they'll come to me and they'll be like, I don't understand, July sucked. And I'm like, every end of September, October.

Trevor: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. I'm like, oh, last year's July was also down, but we were up from last year's down. It just like it was down from previous months, and they're like, really? And I'm like, July's like pretty historically like not a great month for you guys. So, like, what can we do differently? Like, could we forecast that maybe like a little bit harder in June? Or could we be like more vocal about hey, like next month is probably gonna like suck? Do we want to push harder in May and June where we can push harder?

Mark: But like we're pushing brands a lot of like you gotta look at things from a year perspective because unfortunately, there are seasonalities and you can't for every brand too, and they're always different. Yeah, you can't kick against the prick sometimes. Like sometimes it's just like it is what it is, it's gonna be inefficient during this time period. So figure out if you're a long consideration product or a short consideration product, and know how to decrease and increase your efforts when you can actually gain the most. Yeah, don't just assume it's like linear, like nothing is linear. You can't just be like, well, like we did this much in March, so we should do this efficiency and this much in eight years.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you're not always gonna beat and beat and beat. I mean, some brands are always beating and beating month over month over month. For sure, some are I also had a brand that their efficiencies aren't the same every month. Okay, so I had a brand that la we just look like historically down from last year. So finally got a call with them and I was like, Is this gonna be like the call where we're like, come to Jesus about this? He's like, oh, he was like, our margins are so much better though this year. Yeah. And I was like, What? Come again. And he's like, Yeah, we're making less, but we're spending so much less than I'm okay with I'm okay with it for now because our efficiency is like perfectly at where we want it to be. Now we're okay with like scaling back up, but kind of slowly. Yeah.

Trevor: I'm seeing a lot of brands focus on not necessarily decreasing spend, but we're seeing a lot of brands under like the brands that get it that paid is just gonna be more expensive, retention is just harder. And so not that you shouldn't be working on how to be more efficient on your side and how we shouldn't be more efficient on the ad side, like obviously you're doing those things. But the good brands that I'm noticing right now are jumping into fixable things. So, for example, if they're like, hey, I make a bag that costs $40, if I want to decrease by 15% and and get my my cost better, yeah. What if I go work on my cost of goods? How do I go work on that piece while this team is over here working on these things? We're seeing a lot of brands do that. So we have a couple brands too where like things are looking worse from like an efficiency and growth perspective, still growing, just not at the same ratio. But on the back end, their profitability is higher because founders have jumped in and you know said, what can we do to cut some costs here? Understanding that it's hard to make up over here. Yeah. And so I think that's a huge, huge thing that brands can and should be doing.

Mark: Or we have another we have another client that they can't change their costs. But there's a good reason for it, right? Like it's it's a it's an American everything's American made.

Trevor: Yeah.

Mark: But the question is, well, are we being aggressive enough with our with our messaging? Like, are we actually calling anybody out for not doing it?

SPEAKER_04: Okay, I just audited an a sunglasses brand where everything is handmade.

Mark: Sorry, let me just finish this, and then I really want to hear what you say about this. Because it's you can't sit in the middle anymore with no with marketing and e-comm. Like, if you're gonna do something, you gotta really point out and draw a line in the sand and cause a battle. Yeah. You can't just be like, I'm just a nice guy.

SPEAKER_04: I I totally, yes.

Mark: Just yeah, we're doing the right thing. It's like, no, you gotta go like call people out and kind of make it into a thing, or else no one cares.

SPEAKER_04: I was literally just on an audit this morning where the sunglass brand, their everything's handmade. And nowhere in their email retention program do they ever like tout that talk about that. And I was like, at first, I'm like, why are your lead times so long? Like, why is stuff is like stuff goes out of stock, and then like you had to put pre-order in it. She's like, Well, everything's handmade. And I'm like, dude, there's a brand, Aloha's, that does this. They do pre-orders better than any brand I've ever seen. They make it very clear, like, we do small batch sustainable. You can buy something 30% off right now that's in stock. Anything else, you're gonna pre-order and it's gonna be full price always. They never run sales. They've like had this messaging since forever. And then when you place an order, you know it's like six to eight weeks until you're gonna get the shoe because it's super small batch, sustainably made. I'm like, why are you guys not calling this out with your sunglasses? And they were like, We've never wanted to cause like a ruckus. I'm like, well, this is what makes you different than like Ray-Ban. This is what makes you different than any other like Letica brand or what the consumer sees is their reality, right?

Mark: Like perception is reality for people. Yeah. So like if they don't know it, then it's just like, yeah, you're just an overpriced.

SPEAKER_04: You're another $300 and 10 pair of sunglasses.

Mark: Why why would I choose you over the brand that everyone says is the brand? Yeah.

Trevor: Right. What's what's one thing? Because we have to come come to an end here. What's what's one like if one lesson, one thing every brand should do right now? You may have already said it. What is it?

SPEAKER_04: Okay, for email, you have to fix your deliverability, your alt text, like sending times, stop sending to all subscribers. That was three, four things. Um, you can't do what you were doing, but RCS is like, I'm so hot to try about RCS, I would sing it to the rooftops.

Trevor: I love that.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Trevor: Super solid.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

Trevor: Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, guys. Thanks for flying out just for us.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah. It was. It was just for you guys. How did you know? Actually, I'm going to Disney. No, I'm just called.

Trevor: She's on her way to Disney. Mark, this is her layover. It's so funny. Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_04: Um, nomadmarketing.com, Instagram. I'm Toxically Online. You can text me. Nice. Someone will find me.

Trevor: We love Toxically Online. Online. Yeah. You can call her any hour. You can call us too. Call us too, and we will give you a good, we'll give Liz a good we'll rave about you. Nice. Same. We back at you guys. We appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04: Thanks, guys.

Trevor: Alright, guys, we'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. If there's a brand campaign strategy or marketing tactic that you want us to review, please DM me at the TrevorCrump on Instagram or TikTok or at the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. And of course, if you got value from this episode or if you like it whatsoever, please make sure you're subscribing, you're liking, you're following, and of course go leave us to review doing a good job. We will see you guys next time.